Like many languages (but unlike Greek or Hebrew or English), Tuvan uses a formal vs. informal 2nd person pronoun (a familiar vs. a respectful “you”). Unlike other languages that have this feature, however, the translators of the Tuvan Bible have attempted to be very consistent in using the different forms of address in every case a 2nd person pronoun has to be used in the translation of the biblical text.
As Voinov shows in Pronominal Theology in Translating the Gospels (in: The Bible Translator2002, p. 210ff. ), the choice to use either of the pronouns many times involved theological judgment. While the formal pronoun can signal personal distance or a social/power distance between the speaker and addressee, the informal pronoun can indicate familiarity or social/power equality between speaker and addressee.
Here, Jesus is addressing his disciples, individuals and/or crowds with the formal pronoun, showing respect.
In Nepali translations, Jesus addresses his disciples and other people with the medium honorific pronoun timīlē (तिमीले) or timīlēharū (तिमीलेहरू). This disciples respond with a high honorific pronoun. (Source: Chitra Chhetri in The Bible Translator 2009, p. 73ff. )
In most Dutch translations, Jesus addresses his disciples and common people with the informal pronoun, whereas they address him with the formal form.
The musical instrument that is most often translated as “flute” or “pipe” in English is more or less universally used, so it’s typically translated directly with the applicable term.
Since its cultural significance is sometimes different it might be translated with a different instruments is some cases (see also below). When in Matthew 11:17 and Luke 7:32 the flute is mentioned as an instrument played at a wedding, the Chichewa (interconfessional translation, 1999) translates it as “we played the wedding drum for you” (source: Wendland 1987, p. 74), the Yakan and Kankanaey translations use “gongs” (source: Yakan and Kankanaey Back Translations), in Western Bukidnon Manobo “drumming” is used (source: Western Bukidnon Manobo Back Translation), and in Tagbanwa “stringed-instruments” (source: Tagbanwa Back Translation).
Or in Jeremiah 48:36 where the flute is used for mourning, Bassa uses “funeral drum” (source: Newman / Stine) or Hiligaynon, while using “flute,” makes the meaning explicit: “like a lonely music of a flute for the dead” (source: Hiligaynon Back Translation).
Description: The flute was a wind instrument consisting of a tube with a series of finger holes used to alter the tone. Some flutes were made of reed and could take several forms: the tube could be a cylinder or it could be more in the shape of a cone. There were instruments made of a single tube, while others had two tubes side by side. Often ancient double flutes or double pipes were arranged in a V-shape, with two separate reeds. One of these pipes had several holes while the other had only one hole and acted as a kind of drone, providing an unchanging tone to accompany the varying tones coming from the first pipe. Some pipes or flutes were made of other materials, such as wood, ivory, bone, or metal.
Usage: Sound was produced with the flute by blowing across an opening leading into a hole running inside the length of the instrument; in some cases the opening hole was in the end of the instrument while in others this hole was in the side of the instrument toward one end. With the reed pipe, on the other hand, a column of air was set in motion by blowing over a reed device, causing it to vibrate.
Translation: If there is no wind instrument available to translate “flute,” a different kind of wind instrument may be used.
The Hebrew word ‘ugav is usually understood to refer to a wind instrument. It is possible, however, that it is a generic term for “instrument” or even refers to a particular stringed instrument. In Job 21:12 and Job 30:31 it is identified as an instrument that expressed joy and contentment.
Psalms 5:1: The Hebrew word nchiloth appears only here in the Old Testament, and its meaning is uncertain. It may mean “wind instruments” in general or “flutes” in particular. Extra-biblical evidence indicates that it may have been an instrument played for funeral laments.
Matthew 9:23: Here New Revised Standard Version, updated edition has “flute players”: According to Jewish tradition, even the poorest people were expected to have two flute players and a wailing woman for a funeral. In order to clarify the role of the flute players Good News Translation adds “for the funeral.” This information was immediately evident to a Jewish reader who was familiar with the funeral customs, but it will not be clear to other readers. Many cultures are familiar with the flute or other instruments that are played by blowing through a wooden tube. If no such instrument exists, then translators can say “those who played musical instruments for a funeral” or, as in Good News Translation, “musicians for the funeral.” See also flute players.
Men playing flutes (source: Louise Bass (c) British and Foreign Bible Society 1994)
Many languages distinguish between inclusive and exclusive first-person plural pronouns (“we”). (Click or tap here to see more details)
The inclusive “we” specifically includes the addressee (“you and I and possibly others”), while the exclusive “we” specifically excludes the addressee (“he/she/they and I, but not you”). This grammatical distinction is called “clusivity.” While Semitic languages such as Hebrew or most Indo-European languages such as Greek or English do not make that distinction, translators of languages with that distinction have to make a choice every time they encounter “we” or a form thereof (in English: “we,” “our,” or “us”).
For this verse, translators typically select the exclusive form (excluding the multitudes).
Source: Velma Pickett and Florence Cowan in Notes on Translation January 1962, p. 1ff.
Following are a number of back-translations of Luke 7:32:
German New Testament translation by Berger / Nord (publ. 1999): “Perhaps with children on the playground who accuse each other of being spoilsports. Some say: ‘We wanted to play wedding with you and played music, but you didn’t want to dance to it.’ The others say: ‘We wanted to play funeral, but you didn’t want to cry along.’”
Noongar: “They are like children sitting in the market. One side calls to the other, ‘We sang for a wedding but you did not dance! We sang for a funeral and you didn’t weep.'” (Source: Warda-Kwabba Luke-Ang)
Uma: “They are like children to sit at the edge of the main-road, who continually call-back-and-forth with their companions, they said: ‘We encourage you to play-the-flute, You do not want to be glad together-with us (excl.). We encourage you to weep, You also do not want to cry together-with us (excl.).'” (Source: Uma Back Translation)
Yakan: “They are like children sitting in the market playing wedding and funeral. They call to their companions, they say, ‘We beat the drums/rhythm for you, but you did not dance. We wailed but you did not weep.'” (Source: Yakan Back Translation)
Western Bukidnon Manobo: “because the children sit in the market-place playing, and they call to each other saying, ‘We are beating the drum for you but you will not dance, and we are wailing, but you will not join in.'” (Source: Western Bukidnon Manobo Back Translation)
Kankanaey: “They are like children playing in the plaza who will absolutely not be satisfied. They say to their companions, ‘We (excl.) were certainly playing-the-gongs, but you refused to dance. So we sang-funeral-songs, but you still refused to join in.'” (Source: Kankanaey Back Translation)
Tagbanwa: “They’re like children sitting at their playing-place and calling to their friends they play with. They’re saying, ‘Whatever we (excl.) do, it doesn’t suit you (pl.). We play stringed-instruments for you but you don’t dance. We sing songs sung at burials but you don’t cry.'” (Source: Tagbanwa Back Translation)
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Like a number of other East Asian languages, Japanese uses a complex system of honorifics, i.e. a system where a number of different levels of politeness are expressed in language via words, word forms or grammatical constructs. These can range from addressing someone or referring to someone with contempt (very informal) to expressing the highest level of reference (as used in addressing or referring to God) or any number of levels in-between. One way Japanese shows different degree of politeness is through the choice of a second person pronoun (“you” and its various forms) as shown here in the widely-used Japanese Shinkaiyaku (新改訳) Bible of 2017. The most commonly used anata (あなた) is typically used when the speaker is humbly addressing another person.
In these verses the casual variant kimi (君) is used, reflecting the casual nature of the children referring to one another. (Source: S. E. Doi, see also S. E. Doi in Journal of Translation, 18/2022, p. 37ff. )
homoioi eisin ‘they are like….’ The repetition of homoioi at the beginning of the clause strengthens the emphasis.
paidiois tois en agora kethēmenois kai prosphōnousin allelois ‘children sitting in the market place and calling out to one another.’ The article tois serves to define paidiois as an afterthought. This appears to be a literary mannerism. For the general interpretation of the parable see commentaries. For prosphōneō cf. on 6.13.
agora ‘market place,’ ‘bazaar,’ cf. IDB III, 278.
ha legei ‘which say’ referring back to paidiois and serving to introduce the words which the children call out to one another.
ēulēsamen humin kai ouk ōrchēsasthe ‘we played the flute for you and you did not dance.’
auleō lit. ‘to play the flute,’ is often used of making music to dance.
orcheomai ‘to dance,’ a very general term.
ethrēnēsamen kai ouk eklausate ‘we sang a dirge and you did not weep.’
thrēneō (also 23.27) lit. ‘to wail,’ here probably of singing a dirge at a funeral.
klauō ‘to weep,’ here probably ‘to mourn’ at a funeral (cf. the parallel text Mt. 11.17).
Translation:
Market place, or, ‘place where people buy and/or sell’ (cf. Pohnpeian, Ekari); in one of the Western Toradja languages the term lit. means, ‘meeting-place.’ Often such renderings have the connotation required here, i.e. place where the people of the village or town come together for social activities and amusements. Where this is not the case one must use another term, e.g. ‘cross-roads’ (as would be possible in Balinese, where the principal cross-roads in a village is its social centre), ‘wide place’ (in Chuukese the common term for the central gathering place), ‘plaza’ (Latin America).
We piped to you, or, ‘for you’; or with a syntactic shift, ‘you heard us pipe.’ To pipe, or, ‘to play the flute,’ ‘to touch/beat the flute’ (as is idiomatic in Spanish and Batak Toba), or more generically, ‘to make music’ (Pohnpeian); or again, using a cultural equivalent, ‘to drum’ (Toraja-Sa’dan, Tboli). If it is necessary to be specific as to the occasion, a wedding is probably the most obvious opposite of the funeral implied in the next sentence (cf. Good News Translation, Marathi, Kituba).
Dance. Some versions have to use the name of a rather specific dance, e.g. Javanese, East and Toraja-Sa’dan, Batak Toba; if the dance in question is danced only by grown-up persons and/or on serious occasions, one may say ‘play at dancing the … (name) dance.’
We wailed, and you did not weep, or, ‘we wailed to/for you (or, you heard us wail), but you did not weep.’ Both verbs refer here to a public, collective demonstration of grief, as usual at funerals, the former indicating the loud, and probably rather ritualized lamentations of the leaders of the ceremony, the latter to some form of response of the followers. The playful character may again have to be made explicit, as done e.g. in Tae’ by using a reduplicated form of the first verb. To wail, or, ‘to lament,’ ‘to utter cries of grief, or, of mourning,’ ‘to sing funeral songs,’ ‘to sing songs that are sung at a death’ (Tboli). To weep. The rendering may refer to the shedding of tears, cf. e.g. ‘why didn’t your tears drop’ (Tboli), but it need not do so, since terms for another way of expressing grief may be a better cultural equivalent. If two appropriate terms for ‘to wail’ and ‘to weep’ are not available, the second may be rendered by, ‘to wail/lament (etc.) together with us,’ ‘to do the same,’ ‘to join us.’
Quoted with permission from Reiling, J. and Swellengrebel, J.L. A Handbook on the Gospel of Luke. (UBS Handbook Series). New York: UBS, 1971. For this and other handbooks for translators see here . Make sure to also consult the Handbook on the Gospel of Mark for parallel or similar verses.
In 7:32 Jesus described children playing games in the marketplace. In one game they pretended to be celebrating a happy occasion such as a wedding where there was music and dancing. In another game they pretended to be at a funeral. But their friends would not play either game. It was impossible to satisfy them.
Jesus used this short parable to illustrate how the people of his time, especially the religious leaders, refused to be satisfied. They were not happy either with John or with Jesus (7:33–34).
7:32
In Greek this verse is one long sentence. It compares the people of that generation to the whole situation that Jesus described. Languages will have different ways to translate this long comparison. Some ways to do this in English are:
they are like children sitting in the marketplace. Some called out to others… -or-
they act like children who sit in the marketplace and call out to each other…
7:32a
They are like: In this verse Jesus continued to refer to the people in the generation that he was addressing. If you indicated this explicitly in 7:31, you may continue to do that here. For example:
You(plur) are like
children sitting: In this verse the children were playing games. They were pretending to do the things that they referred to. In some languages you may want to make that explicit. For example:
children sitting ⌊and playing games⌋
marketplace: The marketplace was a large open area within the town where people came to buy and sell things. Their children had space to play together there. In some cultures the marketplace is not the most natural place where children play. In other areas there may not be a common marketplace. If this is true in your area, you can consider these options:
• Use a general expression. For example:
in a public place -or-
in the public square (New Living Translation (2004))
• Use a term that refers to the place that children usually gather to play in your culture. For example:
in the center of the village
calling out to one another: The phrase calling out to one another probably implies that the children were playing in groups. The children in one group shouted to the children in the other group. Compare with Matthew 11:16–17. Other ways to translate this are:
some children called out to others -or-
One group shouts to the other (Good News Translation)
7:32b
We played the flute for you, and you did not dance: Some children wanted the others to dance for them when they pretended to play happy music on the flute. But the other group of children did not want to play that game.
People usually played flute music so that people would dance. They played this music at feasts and other happy occasions such as weddings. In some languages it may be helpful to make this explicit. For example:
We played wedding music for you, but you wouldn’t dance! (Good News Translation)
played the flute: The Greek verb that the Berean Standard Bible translates as played the flute means to make music by blowing into a flute. The musical instrument called a flute here probably consisted of one or two pipes, often made of reed, wood, or bone. In this context, Jesus mentioned the flute to represent joyful music for dancing, rather than to refer specifically to the flute. In some cultures a flute may not be used to play joyful music for dancing. If that is true in your culture, you can consider these options:
• Translate in a more general way. For example:
we played happy/joyful music -or-
we played music for dancing
• Refer to a musical instrument in your culture that is used to accompany dancing at joyful occasions.
7:32c
we sang a dirge, and you did not weep: The Greek word that the Berean Standard Bible translates as sang a dirge often refers to the mourning that occurs at funerals. It can also refer to the chants or songs that are sung at funerals. This meaning fits well in this context, since 7:32b also described music. Another way to translate this is:
We sang funeral songs, but you wouldn’t cry! (Good News Translation)
General Comment on 7:32a–c
There are different ways to describe the way in which the people of Jesus’ generation were like the children that Jesus described. In some languages it may be necessary to make the point of similarity explicit. If that is true in your language, you may be able to say:
They are like when children sit and play games in the marketplace, and are ⌊impossible to please⌋. Some children call to others saying…
Living Water is produced for the Bible translation movement in association with Lutheran Bible Translators. Lyrics derived from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®).
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