The Greek and Hebrew that is translated as “dispute,” “gossip,” “mutter” or similar in English is translated in the Catholic Mandarin Chinese Sigao version and the Protestant Union Version with a historical Chinese idiom: yìlùn fēnfēn (議論紛紛 / 议论纷纷), lit. “discuss, one after another.” (Source: Toshikazu S. Foley in Hong Kong Journal of Catholic Studies, 2011, p. 45ff.)
complete verse (John 7:12)
Following are a number of back-translations of John 7:12:
- Uma: “And the people, they murmured about him. There were some who said: ‘He is a good person.’ There were also some who said: ‘No! He is a deceiver!'” (Source: Uma Back Translation)
- Yakan: “Many people were whispering about Isa there in the crowds. Some said, ‘Isa is a good person.’ Others also said, ‘Not so, he is fooling the people.'” (Source: Yakan Back Translation)
- Western Bukidnon Manobo: “And the many people who gathered there in the village of Jerusalem argued. Some said, ‘He is a good person.’ And others also answered, ‘No, he teaches lies to the people.'” (Source: Western Bukidnon Manobo Back Translation)
- Kankanaey: “As for the gathered people, they kept-whispering arguing about him. Some said, ‘His character/custom is really (appreciation particle) good,’ while others for-their-part said, ‘Come-on-now, certainly not, because he deceives the people.'” (Source: Kankanaey Back Translation)
- Tagbanwa: “There were now numerous under-cover discussions by the people concerning him. There were some who said, ‘Expl., he’s a good person.’ But those others, they said, ‘Expl., certainly not! What he’s doing is misleading everyone.'” (Source: Tagbanwa Back Translation)
- Tenango Otomi: “There where the people were, many talked about Jesus. Some said, ‘He is a good man.’ But others said, ‘What good does he do? He just is deceiving the people.'” (Source: Tenango Otomi Back Translation)
pronoun for "God"
God transcends gender, but most languages are limited to grammatical gender expressed in pronouns. In the case of English, this is traditionally confined to “he” (or in the forms “his,” “him,” and “himself”), “she” (and “her,” “hers,” and “herself”), and “it” (and “its” and “itself”).
Modern Mandarin Chinese, however, offers another possibility. Here, the third-person singular pronoun is always pronounced the same (tā), but it is written differently according to its gender (他 is “he,” 她 is “she,” and 它/牠 is “it” and their respective derivative forms). In each of these characters, the first (or upper) part defines the gender (man, woman, or thing/animal), while the second element gives the clue to its pronunciation.
In 1930, after a full century with dozens of Chinese translations, Bible translator Wang Yuande (王元德) coined a new “godly” pronoun: 祂. Chinese readers immediately knew how to pronounce it: tā. But they also recognized that the first part of that character, signifying something spiritual, clarified that each person of the Trinity has no gender aside from being God.
While the most important Protestant and Catholic Chinese versions respectively have opted not to use 祂, some Bible translations do and it is widely used in hymnals and other Christian materials. Among the translations that use 祂 to refer to “God” were early versions of Lü Zhenzhong’s (呂振中) version (New Testament: 1946, complete Bible: 1970). R.P. Kramers (in The Bible Translator 1956, p. 152ff. ) explains why later versions of Lü’s translation did not continue with this practice: “This new way of writing ‘He,’ however, has created a minor problem of its own: must this polite form be used whenever Jesus is referred to? Lü follows the rule that, wherever Jesus is referred to as a human being, the normal tā (他) is written; where he is referred to as divine, especially after the ascension, the reverential tā (祂) is used.”
In Kouya, Godié, Northern Grebo, Eastern Krahn, Western Krahn, and Guiberoua Béte, all languages of the Kru family in Western Africa, a different kind of system of pronouns is used (click or tap here to read more):
In that system, one kind of pronoun is used for humans (male and female alike) and others for natural elements, non-liquid masses, and some spiritual entities (one other is used for large animals and another one for miscellaneous items). While in these languages the pronoun for spiritual entities used to be employed when referring to God, this has changed into the use of the human pronoun.
Lynell Zogbo (in The Bible Translator 1989, p. 401ff. ) explains: “From informal discussions with young Christians especially, it would appear that, at least for some people, the experience and/or concepts of Christianity are affecting the choice of pronoun for God. Some people explain that God is no longer ‘far away,’ but is somehow tangible and personal. For these speakers God has shifted over into the human category.”
In Kouya, God (the Father) and Jesus are referred to with the human pronoun ɔ, whereas the Holy Spirit is referred to with a non-human pronoun. (Northern Grebo and Western Krahn make a similar distinction.)
Eddie Arthur, a former Kouya Bible translation consultant, says the following: “We tried to insist that this shouldn’t happen, but the Kouya team members were insistent that the human pronoun for the Spirit would not work.”
In Burmese, the pronoun ko taw (ကိုယ်တော်) is used either as 2nd person (you) or 3rd person (he, him, his) reference. “This term clearly has its root in the religious language in Burmese. No ordinary persons are addressed or known by this pronoun because it is reserved for Buddhist monks, famous religious teachers, and in the case of Christianity, the Trinity.” (Source: Gam Seng Shae in The Bible Translator 2002, p. 202ff. )
In Thai, the pronoun phra`ong (พระองค์) is used, a gender-neutral pronoun which must refer to a previously introduced royal or divine being. Similarly, in Northern Khmer, which is spoken in Thailand, “an honorific divine pronoun” is used for the pronoun referring to the persons of the Trinity (source: David Thomas in The Bible Translator 1993, p. 445 ). In Urak Lawoi’, another language spoken in Thailand, the translation often uses tuhat (ตูฮัด) — “God” — ”as a divine pronoun where Thai has phra’ong even though it’s actually a noun.” (Source for Thai and Urak Lawoi’: Stephen Pattemore)
The English “Contemporary Torah” addresses the question of God and gendered pronouns by mostly avoiding pronouns in the first five books of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament (unless God is referred to as “lord,” “father,” “king,” or “warrior”). It does that by either using passive constructs (“He gave us” vs. “we were given”), by using the adjective “divine” or by using “God” rather than a pronoun.
Some Protestant and Orthodox English Bibles use a referential capitalized spelling when referring to the persons of the Trinity with “He,” “His,” “Him,” or “Himself.” This includes for instance the New American Standard Bible or The Orthodox New Testament, but most translations do not. Other languages where this is also done (in most Bible translations) are Twents as well as Indonesian and Malay. In the latter two languages this follows the language usage according to the Qur’an, which in turn predicts that usage (see Soesilo in The Bible Translator 1991, p. 442ff. and The Bible Translator 1997, p. 433ff. ).
See also first person pronoun referring to God.
Learn more on Bible Odyssey: Gender of God .
Translation: Chinese
在现代汉语中，第三人称单数代词的读音都是一样的（tā），但是写法并不一样，取决于性别以及是否有生命，即男性为“他”，女性为“她”，动物、植物和无生命事物为“它”（在香港和台湾的汉语使用，动物则为“牠”）。这些字的部首偏旁表明了性别（男人、女人、动物、无生命事物），而另一偏旁通常旁提示发音。
到1930年为止，基督教新教《圣经》经过整整一百年的翻译已经拥有了十几个译本，当时的一位圣经翻译者王元德新造了一个“神圣的”代词“祂”，偏旁“礻”表示神明。一般汉语读者会立即知道这字的发音是tā，而这个偏旁表示属灵的事物，因此他们明白这个字指出，三位一体的所有位格都没有性别之分，而单单是上帝。
然而，最重要的新教圣经译本（1919年的《和合本》）和天主教圣经译本（1968年的《思高圣经》）都没有采用“祂”；虽然如此，许多其他的圣经译本采用了这个字，另外还广泛出现在赞美诗和其他基督信仰的书刊中。（资料来源：Zetzsche）
《吕振中译本》的几个早期版本也使用“祂”来指称“上帝”；这个译本的《新约》于1946年译成，整部《圣经》于1970年完成。克拉默斯（Kramers）指出：“‘他’的这种新写法（即‘祂’）产生了一个小问题，就是在指称耶稣的时候，是否一律使用这个敬语代词？《吕振中译本》遵循的原则是，在称呼耶稣这个人的时候，用一般的‘他’，而在称呼耶稣神性的时候，特别是升天之后的耶稣，则用尊称‘祂’。”
Translator: Simon Wong
Translation commentary on John 7:12
Much whispering is also the reading of New English Bible. New American Bible (“there was much guarded debate”) and Phillips (“there was an undercurrent of discussion”) paint too formal a picture. Whispering comes from the same root as the verb used in 6.41 and 61. In the two earlier passages it was translated grumbling.
In some languages one cannot speak of much whispering. Rather, it is necessary to indicate that the people were whispering about Jesus, for example, “Many people in the crowd were whispering with one another about Jesus” or “… talking in quiet ways” or “… speaking with one another so that others would not overhear them.”
Some Greek manuscripts read “crowds” (New English Bible, Goodspeed, Phillips) in the place of crowd, and the plural is evidently the basis for Jerusalem Bible, “People stood in groups whispering about him,” but Jerusalem Bible does give as an alternative rendering “there was whispering about him in the crowds.” The singular crowd is more in keeping with the usage in John’s Gospel (the plural “crowds” occurs nowhere else in this Gospel). However, the plural “crowds” has better textual support. Once again the UBS Committee on the Greek text evaluates their choice as “D,” because of the high degree of doubt regarding the reading selected for the text.
To indicate the opposition or differences of opinion concerning Jesus, it may be necessary to say “some people contended … but others objected, saying….”
He fools the people may be rendered in some languages “he lies to the people” or “he is leading the people astray” or “he is leading the people off in the wrong way.”
Quoted with permission from Newman, Barclay M. and Nida, Eugene A. A Handbook on the Gospel of John. (UBS Handbook Series). New York: UBS, 1980. For this and other handbooks for translators see here .
SIL Translator’s Notes on John 7:12
7:12a
This verse begins with a Greek conjunction that is often translated as “and” (as in the New Revised Standard Version). This conjunction connects the events in 7:11 and 7:12. Both events happened at the same time. In some languages it may be necessary to translate this conjunction explicitly.
Many in the crowds were whispering about Him: This clause indicates that people were grumbling a lot about Jesus. Many of them were not happy about what he said and did. They argued about who he was. Here are other ways to translate this clause:
There was much whispering about him in the crowd. (Good News Translation)
-or-
There was a lot of grumbling about him among the crowds. (NET Bible Bible)
in the crowds: The phrase the crowds refers to the large numbers of people gathered at the feast. In some languages it is more natural to say “among the many people.”
were whispering about Him: The Greek word that the Berean Standard Bible translates as whispering means “grumbling” or “disagreement.” It refers particularly to low or quiet grumbling, implying that they were unhappy.
7:12b-c
Some said, “He is a good man.” But others replied, “No, He deceives the people.”: The word But in this context indicates the first half of a contrast. The contrast is between what some were saying and what others were saying. In some languages it may be natural to leave it untranslated. For example:
Other people said, “No, He deceives the people.”
Another way to show the contrast is by using a word like “while” or “but” after the first clause. For example:
Some were saying, “Jesus is a good man,” while others were saying, “He is lying to everyone.” (Contemporary English Version)
-or-
Some argued, “He’s a good man,” but others said, “He’s nothing but a fraud who deceives the people.” (New Living Translation (2004))
In some languages it is more natural to use indirect quotations here. For example:
Some of them said/thought that Jesus was a good person and others said/thought that he was deceiving the ordinary people.
7:12b
He is a good man: The clause He is a good man indicates that these people approved of Jesus. The Greek word meaning good refers to someone who is morally good and righteous, and has excellent character.
7:12c
But others replied, “No, He deceives the people.”: The clause others replied indicates that there was another group of people who disagreed with the first.
No: This word begins the other people’s response to the ones who said that Jesus was a good man. They disagreed and argued with the first group. In some languages it may be helpful to make this explicit:
No, ⌊he is not a good man⌋ .
-or-
No, he isn’t. (God’s Word)
He deceives the people: This clause wrongly accuses Jesus of pretending to be something he was not. They thought that he was encouraging people to believe a lie, that he was the Messiah. However, that was really the truth.
Here are other ways to translate this clause:
he is leading the people the wrong way
-or-
He is lying to everyone. (Contemporary English Version)
the people: The Greek phrase that the Berean Standard Bible translates as the people here refers in general to the ordinary Jewish people. The speakers probably did not think of themselves as belonging to the crowd. They seemed to think that they were wiser than the crowd, perhaps because they went to school longer than ordinary people.
Here are some ways that you may be able to imply this attitude:
the common people (NET Bible Bible)
-or-
the general public
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